Culture Within Culture Racism

We've talked alot about this in previous threads but, (SINCE I'VE been here) I haven't seen this particular discussion. Ok, now everyones seen the Spike Lee movie School Daze, where it was rascism within the African American culture with the light vs. dark skinned, Denzel Washington was in a movie called Mississippi Masala about racial tensions because he startes to date an Indian girl. In that movie light skinned Indians called the dark skinned Indians "Darkies". Then you have regular white people and you have what they call white trailor park trash. Here's my question. Do you think those attitudes and believes are still here today within cultures? Why is there not such a fuss over this? And what's you whole opinion about cultures within culture racism? There reason I ask is because I'm a light skinned African American for those of you who have seen my picture and I've had, in my life experience this type of racism within my own culture. A dark skinned woman once told me that she thought that I was stuck on myself, this was back in the 80's (when light skinned brotha's was in. LOL) And the funny part about it was she didn't even know me, and I've NEVER been stuck up in my entire life. She said that all light skinned black men thought that they were the shit. I've had other worst experiences than in my life too. I've heard of other people sharing my same experience as my self in all cultures.

Tell us what you think. Cause I think it still goes on to this very day and we do very little to extinguish it.

Purple123 said:

Purple123...it still goes on. In the African-American culture, East Indians, Native Americans, Hispanics and Asians and I'm sure more. I have heard this upfront from people within the cultures I've mentioned. It's a sad thing. For many African-Americans that whole light-skin vs dark-skin issue pretty much stems from the days of slavery;the lighter-skinned Black working in the plantation owner's house and treated better, not all but many;and the darker-skinned Blacks working out in the fields and treated more harshly. It caused major division among us and unfortunately, the thought that one group may have seen themselves better than the other passed on to generations later, within other ethnic groups in our race (i.e., lighter-skinned Black vs. darker-skinned Blacks or Mixed or lighter Creoles vs Darker-skinned Creoles). It's basically not limited to happening among groups within America though, it pretty much is global (i.e. Brazilians, etc.). Not to mention the Apartheid system that went on in places like South Africa years ago--separating according to complexion.

It's not news that Black families pretty much vary in complexion and our ancestors' history in America has a lot to do with it, but not limited to America. I have 8 siblings who vary from light to darker-skinned. and if you compare one sister to one of my brothers, they vary drastically in complexion and we are all full-blooded related with same parents, but over they years comments have been made from those outside my family about the "difference." We just laugh it off. Unfortunately though, the light skin vs dark skin issues still seems to be a problem among our race and others I've mentioned. Sounds silly, but unfortunately, it is true.
[Edited 8/23/08 21:40pm]

http://prince.org/msg/15/286132
PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.!

There's a common saying among some hispanics that to marry a white/blond/blue-eyed man or woman is to "better the race".

It's typically a tongue-in-cheek comment, but it irks me.

PurpleJedi said:

ah... internalized bigotry and self-loathing.

it happens in all cultures- ethnic (including racial), gender, sexual orientation, and so on.

ook around. from time to time you can see some of it in this very forum.

not naming any names, of course...

ever seen the boondocks on tv? uncle ruckus is a great example.

cborgman said:

lazycrockett said:

DevotedPuppy said:

Purple123 said:

We've talked alot about this in previous threads but, (SINCE I'VE been here) I haven't seen this particular discussion. Ok, now everyones seen the Spike Lee movie School Daze, where it was rascism within the African American culture with the light vs. dark skinned, Denzel Washington was in a movie called Mississippi Masala about racial tensions because he startes to date an Indian girl. In that movie light skinned Indians called the dark skinned Indians "Darkies". Then you have regular white people and you have what they call white trailor park trash. Here's my question. Do you think those attitudes and believes are still here today within cultures? Why is there not such a fuss over this? And what's you whole opinion about cultures within culture racism? There reason I ask is because I'm a light skinned African American for those of you who have seen my picture and I've had, in my life experience this type of racism within my own culture. A dark skinned woman once told me that she thought that I was stuck on myself, this was back in the 80's (when light skinned brotha's was in. LOL) And the funny part about it was she didn't even know me, and I've NEVER been stuck up in my entire life. She said that all light skinned black men thought that they were the shit. I've had other worst experiences than in my life too. I've heard of other people sharing my same experience as my self in all cultures.

Tell us what you think. Cause I think it still goes on to this very day and we do very little to extinguish it.

In my opinion, I think that's more tied to economic status (ie. class) than race. I'm admittedly generalizing here, but I don't really think white people would be racist against other whites based on their skin tone, which is the issue you seem to be alluding to with the light-skinned/dark skinned thing amongst blacks. I've never heard of (and can't really imagine) whites being like, "Uh, you think you're so great because you're tan (or pale)!" I mean, I guess some people think blonds are dumb, but is that racist or just a stereotype? I dunno.

Edit: oh and if whites are upset that someone else is tan or pale, I still think that's more classist. The term redneck derives from farm/manual laborers having to work outside in the sun (thus getting sunburnt "red" necks) while the wealthy didn't have to go out in the sun and remained pale. So that's a class issue. And nowdays having a tan (in the winter) could mean you have the funds to vacation somewhere warm/tropical OR just lay out all day (e.g. not work), which is, again, class not race, imo. Or you still have the "farmer's tan" (see also "redneck").





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[Edited 8/23/08 17:53pm]

If I Were A Pig on the Farm Instead of A Pig In Bed I'd Have Rights

PurpleJedi said:

If I Were A Pig on the Farm Instead of A Pig In Bed I'd Have Rights

cborgman said:

ehuffnsd said:

I've spoken about it many times on this site, usually over in GD, but this is definitely an issue where I live, in Thailand. There are lots of beauty products contain whitening ingredients and the majority of people do wish they had lighter skin. Light skinned Thai Chinese people, as far as the stereotype goes, have the money, the power, the beauty, the status, while the darker your skin is as a Thai the poorer, less educated, worse behaving you are. A 'luuk khrung' (half child) is considered something to be very proud of as a parent and if you are one then you've got a head start in life. Most advertising campaigns feature either very light skinned Thais or mixed white and Asian actors. In soap series actors such as these have huge houses, drive Mercs and Beemers, while maids, idiots, jokers and criminals are all played by dark-skinned Thais. This stereotype is in many regards perfectly fitting, as far as the issue of wealth, social standing and level of education available, and there is really no great unrest or any movement to speak of to challenge the passive racism behind the status quo. It's just the way it is and it's almost universally just accepted.

NoodleSoup said:

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2elijah said:

2elijah said:

Tremolina said:

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NoodleSoup said:

2elijah said:

Wow. Interesting to know this just doesn't happen amongst Black Americans in America. Kind of sad though to know that people in Thailand, at least the darker-skinned ones, just accept it.

Wish I could find my earlier posts on this in GD so I could just paste them here. Basically the stereotype rings true in almost every way besides the assumptions about personality. 99.9% of the time if you see a woman driving a Camry, she'll be light-skinned. If you see a nanny she'll be dark. People on the bus (besides university students) are dark. On the skytrain they're light. New car, light skin. Old car, dark. CEO - light. Management - light. Secretary - medium to light. Cleaner - dark. But as I said, there's just this acceptance. Especially worrying is the apathy towards the media and the negative stereotypes I mentioned in my earlier post (dark criminals, idiots, jokers etc.) but there truly is no movement to shake this up at all. Maybe because to look around is to see that it's the truth of where people are funneled socially by their skin colour and it's just passively perpetuated, without any hate crimes or overt displays of racism (occasional mild verbal slurs excepted) or movement of resistance or uprising. Just a sad truth with no activity from any quarter and general acceptance by all concerned as to your life's lot.

http://prince.org/msg/15/286132
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It still exist and wll never go away. Humans just are NOT very bright when it comes 2 being manipulated and creatures of bad habits. It is passed down from generation 2 generation.

Plain and simple.

Graycap23 said:

uPtoWnNY said:

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2elijah said:

NoodleSoup said:

2elijah said:

Wow. thanks for that info..the whole light skin vs dark skin surely is global by the info both you and Noodlesoup provided. It is very sad that one would think they are superior due to the shade of their skin. It makes me wonder how people of darker skin who are foreigners traveling to these places would be treated.

Well that's an interesting one too. In Thailand there's a word for foreigners, 'farang', that's typically used instead of the more formal term. Various people disagree on whether this word is offensive or not, but the point is that in many ways farangs are looked up to, admired, and treated differently (while some people still dislike foreigners, of course). Farang money is sought after, having a farang husband or wife is generally seen as quite a coup (poor turn of phrase, I know ) but the term doesn't refer to all foreigners, only light skinned ones, as a rule. I'm a white Englishman, so I'm a 'farang'. A tanned skinned Spaniard, perhaps? Probably still just about a farang. The orger Imago, who's half Thai, half American, might even get called farang. These are 'good' foreigners. A black Englishman would not be called a farang. Still being a British citizen they would be treated differently to me. They would be called either 'khon dum' (black person) or more likely, negro. They tend to be darker than nearly all Thais, for one. Similarly for Indians, Pakistanis etc. - these would all be treated much as the darker skinned Thais would be, or maybe even worse. Yet how the Thais love Tiger Woods, and revere their dark skinned Premiership football heroes they watch on TV every week.

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[Edited 8/25/08 17:50pm]

http://prince.org/msg/15/286132
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2elijah said:

NoodleSoup said:

Well that's an interesting one too. In Thailand there's a word for foreigners, 'farang', that's typically used instead of the more formal term. Various people disagree on whether this word is offensive or not, but the point is that in many ways farangs are looked up to, admired, and treated differently (while some people still dislike foreigners, of course). Farang money is sought after, having a farang husband or wife is generally seen as quite a coup (poor turn of phrase, I know ) but the term doesn't refer to all foreigners, only light skinned ones, as a rule. I'm a white Englishman, so I'm a 'farang'. A tanned skinned Spaniard, perhaps? Probably still just about a farang. The orger Imago, who's half Thai, half American, might even get called farang. These are 'good' foreigners. A black Englishman would not be called a farang. Still being a British citizen they would be treated differently to me. They would be called either 'khon dum' (black person) or more likely, negro. They tend to be darker than nearly all Thais, for one. Similarly for Indians, Pakistanis etc. - these would all be treated much as the darker skinned Thais would be, or maybe even worse. Yet how the Thais love Tiger Woods, and revere their dark skinned Premiership football heroes they watch on TV every week.

.
[Edited 8/25/08 17:50pm]

Wow, amazing info. But it's still such a shame that this whole complexion situation is global. I'm actually not really too surprised though. I have to say this is one of the best conversations I've had on race issues, and I do appreciate you sharing this information with me and others. In America I have seen dark-skinned Phillipines, Hawaiians, Thais, Brazilians, Samoans and more that I can't name right now. I have often wondered how they are treated in their countries. Thanks again for sharing this information regarding people in Thailand, very educational and interesting info from someone who has had access to their culture..
[Edited 8/25/08 18:07pm]

NoodleSoup said:

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PurpleJedi said:

So, with everything so far that's been said, where did this global problem come from?

Purple123 said:

PurpleJedi said:

Purple123 said:

So, with everything so far that's been said, where did this global problem come from?

This is what I think happened;

THINK of what the world was probably like before Columbus & DeGamma.

MOST of the world consisted of dark-skinned (to various degrees) and dark-haired, dark-eyed people.

ONLY in the subcontinent of Europe (concentrated in the North) you could find these curious humans with light eyes, light hair and little or no pigment to their skin.

Then Spain & Portugal begin their exploration & conquest of the parts of the world unknown to them. Unfortunately they succeed, and the rest of Europe goes imperialism-crazy.

Now you have people around the globe being exposed to different body types. As humans, we appreciate uniqueness, so these "different" people are considered desirable.

I read in college of the experience of the Carib chiefs in Hispaniola, who at first were courted by the Spaniards with slaves. The chiefs were fascinated with the exotic women being brought to them; "black ones with full curves & lips and white ones with gold hair & blue eyes".

Now think of these new definitions of beauty being presented to them... and think of what happens next. Europeans colonize the globe, and alot of people wind up with the white ones with all the money and power, and the black ones in shackles out in the fields.

Naturally, "beautiful" is associated with the white ones, and is idolized.

After the conquest of Mexico, the Aztecs began to abandon the practice of plucking facial hair (considered barbaric before Cortez) and men began to try to grow as much facial hair as possible to emulate the full-beared Spaniards in control of their society. (Indigenous races tend to have little or no facial hair).

IMO, this is what pretty much happened around the world, which is why he European ideal of beauty is spread far & wide.

I can only imagine what would've happened if, say, the Chinese had followed up with their global exploration in 1421, (71 years before Columbus) and had set out to conquer the lands they had found. We would probably ALL be idolizing the Asian ideal of beauty today (including bound feet!).

...I'm rambling again....

paintedlady said:

PurpleJedi said:

There's a common saying among some hispanics that to marry a white/blond/blue-eyed man or woman is to "better the race".

It's typically a tongue-in-cheek comment, but it irks me.

;nod: I typically date African American men, and in my extended family this is frowned upon, even though my father re-married to an African American woman from the south and I have 3 siblings that are 1/2 African American he doesn't want me to marry an African American man.

"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man." General Ann Dunwoody