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Thread started 11/14/08 6:14am

Mach

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Dealing with demons

The Rev. Elbert Maxwell knew the problem was not psychological.

It was the early 1990s, and it was a thriving time for Maxwell’s Irvington-based church, where a woman in her 40s sought an absolution from what she believed was the invasion of evil spirits. And no medical doctor had a remedy.

Sitting in the church’s prayer room, the woman spewed vomit, then suddenly fell from her chair, Maxwell recounted to The Times. Like a serpent, she began to hiss. Her body curled in a crooked contortion on the floor, then a growl jeered from her lips.

"Come out of her now, in the name of Jesus," Maxwell said. He repeated this three times. The woman soon afterward recovered.

Maxwell, pastor of The Theatre Church, The Sword of the Spirit Christian Church Ministries, a Bible-based ministry, performs what is known in charismatic Christianity as deliverance ministry, in which people are not possessed, but feel they are oppressed, controlled or influenced by evil spirits or forces.

That makes it different from full-blown exorcism, which is the act of driving demons out of a person believed to be possessed.

Maxwell is not a healer or an exorcist, but he aims to relieve people of their oppressed feelings through rigorous prayer and lead them to God.

"It is one of my passions," said Maxwell. In more than 40 years of ministry, Maxwell said he has cast evil spirits out of more than 250 people, and many more still seek his help.

Drugs, abuse, abortion and molestation are some of the problems that have broken down the spirit, he said, leaving people desperate for spiritual remedy.

Deliverance and exorcisms have seemingly increased during the past 30 years due to the growth of cults, satanic masses and the worship of and interest in witchcraft, said the Rev. John Wassell, a priest for the Archdiocese of Newark. "The lessening of Christian culture and the interest in other spiritual cultures have increased these problems," Wassell said. In the Catholic Church, deliverance ministries are also offered. "The church does everything to rule out possible psychological problems," the priest noted.

Hype about exorcism soared with the 1973 film "The Exorcist," which was inspired by the William Peter Blatty novel. Blatty based it on the 1949 demonic possession of a 13-year-old boy reportedly exorcised in St. Louis, Mo.

While he studied in theological seminary in the 1960s, Maxwell did not have study courses examining demonic possession. He taught himself, through rigorous study, ways to help people who believe evil spirits are controlling their lives. "A lot of it is not taught. It is considered controversial and people don’t want to deal with it," Maxwell said. Though he said he has never confronted a case of demonic possession, Maxwell said it does happen.

While pastoral care is often available for people seeking spiritual guidance, priests at Montclair’s four Roman Catholic Churches told The Times they have not directly dealt with exorcism.

"It’s not the kind of thing we talk about freely … There is a method in the Catholic Church with dealing with it, but the church is careful of identifying other possible causes of phenomenon that disturbs people," said Monsignor Timothy Shugrue of Montclair’s Immaculate Conception Church. The proscribed method, however, is usually handled "very quietly and discreetly," said Shugrue.

"I don’t think it’s common, but we’re prepared to deal with it if the need arises," he said.

"Evil is real, and it moves people to do all kinds of evil things. The question is how evil manifests itself, and the possibility that evil can manifest itself in the physical world," the monsignor added. "The Catholic Church’s conviction is that God is always more powerful than evil."

A bishop can grant permission to perform an exorcism when all possible psychological and mental causes have been ruled out, Wassell said.

While Pope John Paul II reigned over the Vatican, he requested every bishop to authorize an exorcist for each diocese, and it is still in the process, said Wassell. A bishop’s permission is not necessary to perform deliverance ministry, he noted.

Presbyterianism also has its own prescription for dealing with demonic possession, said the Rev. Paul Leggett of Grace Presbyterian Church. A series of investigations are conducted on an individual’s mental and psychological health before conducting an exorcism.

"It’s not something that is done lightly … Anybody who has got a mental problem or condition, like having seizures, can sometimes teeter to be demonic, when in fact, it could just be neurological."

The Rev. Allison Denise Sweatt Fuller, who was raised in Montclair, claimed she was possessed by evil spirits in the early 1990s and that Maxwell cast them out.

When Maxwell "delivered" her from what she said was possession, her life completely changed. Fuller, 46, now pastors her own church in Huntsville, Ala., and leads a deliverance ministry.

"I don’t live in fear," she said. "Not anymore."

Self-pity is an excuse to do nothing. To appeal to sympathy for pity's sake is to seek affirmation of the choice to do nothing
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Reply #1 posted 11/14/08 6:22am

razor

Mach said:

The Rev. Elbert Maxwell knew the problem was not psychological.

It was the early 1990s, and it was a thriving time for Maxwell’s Irvington-based church, where a woman in her 40s sought an absolution from what she believed was the invasion of evil spirits. And no medical doctor had a remedy.

Sitting in the church’s prayer room, the woman spewed vomit, then suddenly fell from her chair, Maxwell recounted to The Times. Like a serpent, she began to hiss. Her body curled in a crooked contortion on the floor, then a growl jeered from her lips.

"Come out of her now, in the name of Jesus," Maxwell said. He repeated this three times. The woman soon afterward recovered.

Maxwell, pastor of The Theatre Church, The Sword of the Spirit Christian Church Ministries, a Bible-based ministry, performs what is known in charismatic Christianity as deliverance ministry, in which people are not possessed, but feel they are oppressed, controlled or influenced by evil spirits or forces.

That makes it different from full-blown exorcism, which is the act of driving demons out of a person believed to be possessed.

Maxwell is not a healer or an exorcist, but he aims to relieve people of their oppressed feelings through rigorous prayer and lead them to God.

"It is one of my passions," said Maxwell. In more than 40 years of ministry, Maxwell said he has cast evil spirits out of more than 250 people, and many more still seek his help.

Drugs, abuse, abortion and molestation are some of the problems that have broken down the spirit, he said, leaving people desperate for spiritual remedy.

Deliverance and exorcisms have seemingly increased during the past 30 years due to the growth of cults, satanic masses and the worship of and interest in witchcraft, said the Rev. John Wassell, a priest for the Archdiocese of Newark. "The lessening of Christian culture and the interest in other spiritual cultures have increased these problems," Wassell said. In the Catholic Church, deliverance ministries are also offered. "The church does everything to rule out possible psychological problems," the priest noted.

Hype about exorcism soared with the 1973 film "The Exorcist," which was inspired by the William Peter Blatty novel. Blatty based it on the 1949 demonic possession of a 13-year-old boy reportedly exorcised in St. Louis, Mo.

While he studied in theological seminary in the 1960s, Maxwell did not have study courses examining demonic possession. He taught himself, through rigorous study, ways to help people who believe evil spirits are controlling their lives. "A lot of it is not taught. It is considered controversial and people don’t want to deal with it," Maxwell said. Though he said he has never confronted a case of demonic possession, Maxwell said it does happen.

While pastoral care is often available for people seeking spiritual guidance, priests at Montclair’s four Roman Catholic Churches told The Times they have not directly dealt with exorcism.

"It’s not the kind of thing we talk about freely … There is a method in the Catholic Church with dealing with it, but the church is careful of identifying other possible causes of phenomenon that disturbs people," said Monsignor Timothy Shugrue of Montclair’s Immaculate Conception Church. The proscribed method, however, is usually handled "very quietly and discreetly," said Shugrue.

"I don’t think it’s common, but we’re prepared to deal with it if the need arises," he said.

"Evil is real, and it moves people to do all kinds of evil things. The question is how evil manifests itself, and the possibility that evil can manifest itself in the physical world," the monsignor added. "The Catholic Church’s conviction is that God is always more powerful than evil."

A bishop can grant permission to perform an exorcism when all possible psychological and mental causes have been ruled out, Wassell said.
While Pope John Paul II reigned over the Vatican, he requested every bishop to authorize an exorcist for each diocese, and it is still in the process, said Wassell. A bishop’s permission is not necessary to perform deliverance ministry, he noted.

Presbyterianism also has its own prescription for dealing with demonic possession, said the Rev. Paul Leggett of Grace Presbyterian Church. A series of investigations are conducted on an individual’s mental and psychological health before conducting an exorcism."It’s not something that is done lightly … Anybody who has got a mental problem or condition, like having seizures, can sometimes teeter to be demonic, when in fact, it could just be neurological."

The Rev. Allison Denise Sweatt Fuller, who was raised in Montclair, claimed she was possessed by evil spirits in the early 1990s and that Maxwell cast them out.

When Maxwell "delivered" her from what she said was possession, her life completely changed. Fuller, 46, now pastors her own church in Huntsville, Ala., and leads a deliverance ministry.

"I don’t live in fear," she said. "Not anymore."


And how exactly are they qualifed to determine whether a person has a psychlogical condition/illness. Ths is playing with peoples lifes. THese people need the help of professionals, not a bunch of blokes who beleive they are the mouthpiece of a super-being. Its amazing in this day and age that we allow this sort of thing to happen...

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Reply #2 posted 11/14/08 7:36am

union119

thumbs up!

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Reply #3 posted 11/14/08 7:54am

Cloudbuster

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"The Catholic Church’s conviction is that God is always more powerful than evil."


Yet obviously not powerful enough else He'd remove such nastiness with a snap of his digits, right?

He could, of course, just be fucking with us. Oh happy day.

"Shake yer reptile, baby!" stoned
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Reply #4 posted 11/14/08 4:35pm

union119

Cloudbuster said:

"The Catholic Church’s conviction is that God is always more powerful than evil."


Yet obviously not powerful enough else He'd remove such nastiness with a snap of his digits, right?

He could, of course, just be fucking with us. Oh happy day.


God lets the Beast have its day, in order to gain momentum.

so i heard.
biggrin

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Reply #5 posted 11/14/08 4:39pm

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

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Cloudbuster said:

"The Catholic Church’s conviction is that God is always more powerful than evil."


Yet obviously not powerful enough else He'd remove such nastiness with a snap of his digits, right?

He could, of course, just be fucking with us. Oh happy day.

Such a beacon of positivity smile

I stay Woke.

Two Fish 2008, Upstream/Downstream: Master Teacher, Healer, Leader, Of Hope, At Peace, To Sanctuary, In Redemption, Living Gifts unto Life and Light.

http://prince.org/msg/100/264513
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Reply #6 posted 11/14/08 4:42pm

meow85

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Sounds to me like the woman had a seizure. They have treatments for epilepsy, but no cure. It doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be managed with medical help.


It's amazing the amount of hubris religion gives some people. confused

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Reply #7 posted 11/15/08 6:41am

benni

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From what I've been told, the story of the 13 year old boy that the movie "The Exorcist" was based upon, occurred at Arsenal Hospital (a state mental facility). Supposedly there is an entire floor that is shut off where this occurred. My ex-father-in-law was a paranoid schizophrenic who spent time at Arsenal, and said that when he first started going there, the techniques they'd use to "help" those with mental illnesses, included locking them on that floor if they were acting out. (This was after telling them of demonic possession and all that supposedly occurred on that floor.) It didn't generally help the patient, only intensifying their delusions and hallucinations. The mind is a powerful tool.
[Edited 11/15/08 6:42am]

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Reply #8 posted 11/15/08 10:09am

razor

meow85 said:

Sounds to me like the woman had a seizure. They have treatments for epilepsy, but no cure. It doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be managed with medical help.


It's amazing the amount of hubris religion gives some people. confused


nod These people are endangering the lives of people by persuading them that their superstitions are the cure, not professional help. Its an abuse and not becoming of people who claim to want to help people...

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Reply #9 posted 11/15/08 12:23pm

meow85

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razor said:

meow85 said:

Sounds to me like the woman had a seizure. They have treatments for epilepsy, but no cure. It doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be managed with medical help.


It's amazing the amount of hubris religion gives some people. confused


nod These people are endangering the lives of people by persuading them that their superstitions are the cure, not professional help. Its an abuse and not becoming of people who claim to want to help people...

nod I've heard of people actually dying or becoming crippled for life because they refuse medical intervention.

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Reply #10 posted 11/16/08 4:00am

Dayclear

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Why doesn't the Catholic church remove their own evil, like molesting little boys? mad

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Reply #11 posted 11/16/08 8:44am

lilgish

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Malachi Martin was also an enemy against the devil and his minions. Some really good catholic priests out there still fighting.

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Reply #12 posted 11/16/08 5:48pm

ThreadBare

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To suggest that people have abused their power within the Church would be foolish and unrealistic. Humans tend to abuse power wherever they can exercise it.

I wonder whether the detractors on this board are skeptics only of Christianity or also of the supernatural world in its totality.

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Reply #13 posted 11/16/08 6:17pm

Flowers2

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ThreadBare said:

To suggest that people have abused their power within the Church would be foolish and unrealistic. Humans tend to abuse power wherever they can exercise it.

I wonder whether the detractors on this board are skeptics only of Christianity or also of the supernatural world in its totality.



well ..we know why that is lol they don't accept the spirit world...

Wøü£Ð Ü ®üñ Tö Më
Ïf §ømëböÐÿ Hü®t Ü
E¥ëñ Ïf Thät §ømëböÐÿ Wä§ Mè
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Reply #14 posted 11/16/08 8:29pm

PurpleJedi

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Flowers2 said:

ThreadBare said:

To suggest that people have abused their power within the Church would be foolish and unrealistic. Humans tend to abuse power wherever they can exercise it.

I wonder whether the detractors on this board are skeptics only of Christianity or also of the supernatural world in its totality.



well ..we know why that is lol they don't accept the spirit world...


This is something that I have often wondered.

I am officialy an Agnostic, but I do embrace the spiritual side of the Human Being.
I believe that what grants us this higher intelligence (which we take for granted) is what others think of as a "soul".
There are also experiences in my life and in the lives of many in my immediate family, that cannot be discounted as mere "coincidences" or "happenings of chance".

I look around me, people in my community, in my workplace, in my past...and I can see that many of them carry "inner demons". There are tortured souls everywhere...some of them jumping off of bridges, others killing children with their bare hands.
Can they be cured with psychological counseling? Do they need an exorcism? I can't say for sure, but my guess is that if you have lost your touch with the spiritual side of yourself, then a good psychiatrist and heavy medication will probably do. And if you still believe in "Angels & Demons" then an exorcism will probably work wonders. The human mind is a wondrous thing...and I don't just mean the gray matter between our ears.

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Reply #15 posted 11/16/08 8:51pm

lezama

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Dayclear said:

Why doesn't the Catholic church remove their own evil, like molesting little boys? mad


That would mean a serious owning up to all of it.

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Reply #16 posted 11/16/08 9:55pm

meow85

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ThreadBare said:

To suggest that people have abused their power within the Church would be foolish and unrealistic. Humans tend to abuse power wherever they can exercise it.

I wonder whether the detractors on this board are skeptics only of Christianity or also of the supernatural world in its totality.

Before you accuse people of something, perhaps you should check to see if you've spelled it right.

Scepticism is healthy; it signifies a functioning, questioning mind. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm sceptical of any claim or organization that can't be proven empirically. I don't write it off entirely, but I don't trip over myself to believe something without asking whether it might be true.

Real Men Wear Dresses*

*if anyone has a clue what I'm referring to, you get a cookie
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Reply #17 posted 11/16/08 9:59pm

union119

lezama said:

Dayclear said:

Why doesn't the Catholic church remove their own evil, like molesting little boys? mad


That would mean a serious owning up to all of it.


some people never admit to their mistakes.

they would lose face.

vanity and appearances mean more to them

than a clear conscience.

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Reply #18 posted 11/16/08 11:47pm

morningsong

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meow85 said:

ThreadBare said:

To suggest that people have abused their power within the Church would be foolish and unrealistic. Humans tend to abuse power wherever they can exercise it.

I wonder whether the detractors on this board are skeptics only of Christianity or also of the supernatural world in its totality.

Before you accuse people of something, perhaps you should check to see if you've spelled it right.

Scepticism is healthy; it signifies a functioning, questioning mind. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm sceptical of any claim or organization that can't be proven empirically. I don't write it off entirely, but I don't trip over myself to believe something without asking whether it might be true.



disbelief Lawd have mercy. Wisdom is a beautiful thing.

Anything you don't feed dies.
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Reply #19 posted 11/17/08 12:43am

meow85

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morningsong said:

meow85 said:


Before you accuse people of something, perhaps you should check to see if you've spelled it right.

Scepticism is healthy; it signifies a functioning, questioning mind. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm sceptical of any claim or organization that can't be proven empirically. I don't write it off entirely, but I don't trip over myself to believe something without asking whether it might be true.



disbelief Lawd have mercy. Wisdom is a beautiful thing.



Do you consider wisdom accepting every little thing you're told without a thought, or shouldn't wisdom involve using your God-given brain to question a situation?

Real Men Wear Dresses*

*if anyone has a clue what I'm referring to, you get a cookie
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Reply #20 posted 11/17/08 12:55am

morningsong

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meow85 said:

morningsong said:




disbelief Lawd have mercy. Wisdom is a beautiful thing.



Do you consider wisdom accepting every little thing you're told without a thought, or shouldn't wisdom involve using your God-given brain to question a situation?



No, not at all. Don't you get what I'm pointing out?

Anything you don't feed dies.
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Reply #21 posted 11/17/08 5:12am

razor

ThreadBare said:

To suggest that people have abused their power within the Church would be foolish and unrealistic. Humans tend to abuse power wherever they can exercise it.

I wonder whether the detractors on this board are skeptics only of Christianity or also of the supernatural world in its totality.


In it's totality. Absolutely...

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Reply #22 posted 11/17/08 5:48am

ThreadBare

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meow85 said:

ThreadBare said:

To suggest that people have abused their power within the Church would be foolish and unrealistic. Humans tend to abuse power wherever they can exercise it.

I wonder whether the detractors on this board are skeptics only of Christianity or also of the supernatural world in its totality.

Before you accuse people of something, perhaps you should check to see if you've spelled it right.
Scepticism is healthy; it signifies a functioning, questioning mind. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm sceptical of any claim or organization that can't be proven empirically. I don't write it off entirely, but I don't trip over myself to believe something without asking whether it might be true.



I-r-o-n-i-c. lol Why don't you check the spelling for the both of us? lol

Listen, all kidding aside, most thinking people that I know who follow Christ have a healthy amount of questioning included in that faith journey. I know I do. God doesn't ask born-again believers to surrender our brains. Actually, throughout the Bible, it's astonishing how many times wisdom and sober judgment are referred to. If anything, the lesson of the Bible seems to be that God always wanted an intimate, thoughtful relationship with humans, that He wanted it so badly that He gave Christ sacrificially to bridge a gap with a lost world.

And, as I've said here numerous times, the application of the Bible and the building of one's faith in Christ is very much an empirical, trial-and-observation approach. I pray about something very specific, in Jesus Christ's name, and something wholly specific occurs. God is faithful.

I know this thread is about demons, but I can't really discuss the lower beings without acknowledging the Supreme Being and His sovreignty over them and how He imputes that same authority to believers in Jesus Christ. Exorcism is, perhaps, the most explicit demonstration of that authority.

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Reply #23 posted 11/17/08 6:31am

lascantas

I am back here because I tried the music thread, and I am no good at it. lol

You know I do think "demons" exist...

I have not witnessed an exorcism though.

I do not understand these things so I cannot comment very much except to say I do not rule it out!

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Reply #24 posted 11/17/08 8:02am

razor

ThreadBare said:

meow85 said:


Before you accuse people of something, perhaps you should check to see if you've spelled it right.
Scepticism is healthy; it signifies a functioning, questioning mind. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm sceptical of any claim or organization that can't be proven empirically. I don't write it off entirely, but I don't trip over myself to believe something without asking whether it might be true.



I-r-o-n-i-c. lol Why don't you check the spelling for the both of us? lol

Listen, all kidding aside, most thinking people that I know who follow Christ have a healthy amount of questioning included in that faith journey. I know I do. God doesn't ask born-again believers to surrender our brains. Actually, throughout the Bible, it's astonishing how many times wisdom and sober judgment are referred to. If anything, the lesson of the Bible seems to be that God always wanted an intimate, thoughtful relationship with humans, that He wanted it so badly that He gave Christ sacrificially to bridge a gap with a lost world.

And, as I've said here numerous times, the application of the Bible and the building of one's faith in Christ is very much an empirical, trial-and-observation approach. I pray about something very specific, in Jesus Christ's name, and something wholly specific occurs. God is faithful.

I know this thread is about demons, but I can't really discuss the lower beings without acknowledging the Supreme Being and His sovreignty over them and how He imputes that same authority to believers in Jesus Christ. Exorcism is, perhaps, the most explicit demonstration of that authority.


Can you pray for the RBS share price to rise 300% by this time tomorrow please? I'll go long and we'll split the profits..

Alternatively, world peace woule be nice. By next week do-able?

Meow, this was a response to your post, so I'll leave the disecting job to you...

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Reply #25 posted 11/17/08 8:17am

Cloudbuster

avatar

razor said:

ThreadBare said:

I-r-o-n-i-c. lol Why don't you check the spelling for the both of us? lol

Listen, all kidding aside, most thinking people that I know who follow Christ have a healthy amount of questioning included in that faith journey. I know I do. God doesn't ask born-again believers to surrender our brains. Actually, throughout the Bible, it's astonishing how many times wisdom and sober judgment are referred to. If anything, the lesson of the Bible seems to be that God always wanted an intimate, thoughtful relationship with humans, that He wanted it so badly that He gave Christ sacrificially to bridge a gap with a lost world.

And, as I've said here numerous times, the application of the Bible and the building of one's faith in Christ is very much an empirical, trial-and-observation approach. I pray about something very specific, in Jesus Christ's name, and something wholly specific occurs. God is faithful.

I know this thread is about demons, but I can't really discuss the lower beings without acknowledging the Supreme Being and His sovreignty over them and how He imputes that same authority to believers in Jesus Christ. Exorcism is, perhaps, the most explicit demonstration of that authority.


Can you pray for the RBS share price to rise 300% by this time tomorrow please? I'll go long and we'll split the profits..

Alternatively, world peace woule be nice. By next week do-able?


“Ask and it shall be given you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

No mattereth how farfetched it soundeth, it is true. If it weren’t true, the Bible wouldn’t sayeth so. nod

"Shake yer reptile, baby!" stoned
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Reply #26 posted 11/17/08 8:34am

razor

Cloudbuster said:

razor said:



Can you pray for the RBS share price to rise 300% by this time tomorrow please? I'll go long and we'll split the profits..

Alternatively, world peace woule be nice. By next week do-able?


“Ask and it shall be given you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

No mattereth how farfetched it soundeth, it is true. If it weren’t true, the Bible wouldn’t sayeth so. nod


Indeedeth...

lol

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Reply #27 posted 11/17/08 8:37am

lascantas

Cloudbuster said:

razor said:



Can you pray for the RBS share price to rise 300% by this time tomorrow please? I'll go long and we'll split the profits..

Alternatively, world peace woule be nice. By next week do-able?


“Ask and it shall be given you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

No mattereth how farfetched it soundeth, it is true. If it weren’t true, the Bible wouldn’t sayeth so. nod


You know it is very similar to that The Secret.. people asking the universe for things...

I do not usually "ask" for thing.. Like is somebody is sick, I say, if it be Your will.. please make them better. But I do not ask for a million dollars. Maybe this is why I am not a millionaire? lol

You.. know I ask more for spiritual guidance and help. I ask to help maybe with the suffering of a friend or family member.. and maybe to cure them if it be God's will. I ask to give people the strength to endure a loss or suffering.. for them to find peace.. You know these things.

But is not like I ask for.. a dress or any material thing. I do ask for guidance to do good and be a better person.

Demons.. is just one of those things.. I just do not know.. I really don't so.. I cannot say.

In another thread I talked about different people I have know who were witches and/or "mystics." I just do not know..

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Reply #28 posted 11/17/08 8:43am

razor

lascantas said:

Cloudbuster said:



“Ask and it shall be given you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

No mattereth how farfetched it soundeth, it is true. If it weren’t true, the Bible wouldn’t sayeth so. nod


You know it is very similar to that The Secret.. people asking the universe for things...

I do not usually "ask" for thing.. Like is somebody is sick, I say, if it be Your will.. please make them better. But I do not ask for a million dollars. Maybe this is why I am not a millionaire? lol

You.. know I ask more for spiritual guidance and help. I ask to help maybe with the suffering of a friend or family member.. and maybe to cure them if it be God's will. I ask to give people the strength to endure a loss or suffering.. for them to find peace.. You know these things.

But is not like I ask for.. a dress or any material thing. I do ask for guidance to do good and be a better person.

Demons.. is just one of those things.. I just do not know.. I really don't so.. I cannot say.

In another thread I talked about different people I have know who were witches and/or "mystics." I just do not know..



And I imagine that on occasion, you prays appear to be answered on on others it appears that god made a different decision than you would have liked no?

That is what is so ludicrous about Threadbare's comments about specific things coming true when asked. It implies that for all those whose prayers have not been asnswered, that they are somehow unfavoured by god or that God is s spiteful B***tard who will help some but not others, just to keep everyone on their toes.

I;m not sure if it was threadbare, but I remember a thread about god flexing his might, where someone sited an instance of a driver who cut them up and subsequently getting stuck in a traffic jam as God's will. It is people like that who make religion a laughing stock. Your faith (and any faith) could do with more people like you. In fact, I would say that if religions do not become more moderate and tolerant and "rational" (slight oxymoron I know), it will continue to die as it is now...

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Reply #29 posted 11/17/08 9:03am

lascantas

razor said:

lascantas said:



You know it is very similar to that The Secret.. people asking the universe for things...

I do not usually "ask" for thing.. Like is somebody is sick, I say, if it be Your will.. please make them better. But I do not ask for a million dollars. Maybe this is why I am not a millionaire? lol

You.. know I ask more for spiritual guidance and help. I ask to help maybe with the suffering of a friend or family member.. and maybe to cure them if it be God's will. I ask to give people the strength to endure a loss or suffering.. for them to find peace.. You know these things.

But is not like I ask for.. a dress or any material thing. I do ask for guidance to do good and be a better person.

Demons.. is just one of those things.. I just do not know.. I really don't so.. I cannot say.

In another thread I talked about different people I have know who were witches and/or "mystics." I just do not know..



And I imagine that on occasion, you prays appear to be answered on on others it appears that god made a different decision than you would have liked no?

That is what is so ludicrous about Threadbare's comments about specific things coming true when asked. It implies that for all those whose prayers have not been asnswered, that they are somehow unfavoured by god or that God is s spiteful B***tard who will help some but not others, just to keep everyone on their toes.

I;m not sure if it was threadbare, but I remember a thread about god flexing his might, where someone sited an instance of a driver who cut them up and subsequently getting stuck in a traffic jam as God's will. It is people like that who make religion a laughing stock. Your faith (and any faith) could do with more people like you. In fact, I would say that if religions do not become more moderate and tolerant and "rational" (slight oxymoron I know), it will continue to die as it is now...


Hey, you know what? I just wrote about this in another thread.. about that campaign of ..just be good for goodness sakes! lol

I think we pick the wrong battles. You know like the Christmas battle. I have no problem with saying "Happy Holidays." I have no problem with maybe the celebration becoming more inclusive than just about Christianity! But you know.. there are people who are all crazy about this for what reason? Is this going to change there are other people who do not believe in God or follow other religions? No. To me.. it is the same way for ss marriage. To me it is crazy to spend money on a compaign against ss marriage when there is so much suffering in the world.

This is what I think. Have you ever heard of Mariah's song "Butterfly." Well sometimes we have to let people go to discover for themselves. If they come back or even meet you somewhere in the middle.. well then it was meant to be all along. But we cannot "force" a person to be Christian or believe in these things. As I said in the other thread, one of Christianity's biggest mistakes is becoming too political, I think. Just let people be.. and then maybe they will come back.. or maybe not. But at least give people a choice. You know this is the problem: many Christians do not want to give others a choice, and this is wrong.

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