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Thread started 11/17/08 3:32pm

Tremolina

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Obama will probably not bring war crime charges

Bad idea, bad advise, bad start to "regain America's moral standing around the world", if this is true.

Obama advisers: No charges likely vs interrogators

FOX News WASHINGTON – Barack Obama's incoming administration is unlikely to bring criminal charges against government officials who authorized or engaged in harsh interrogations of suspected terrorists during the George W. Bush presidency. Obama, who has criticized the use of torture, is being urged by some constitutional scholars and human rights groups to investigate possible war crimes by the Bush administration.

Two Obama advisers said there's little — if any — chance that the incoming president's Justice Department will go after anyone involved in authorizing or carrying out interrogations that provoked worldwide outrage.

The advisers spoke on condition of anonymity because the plans are still tentative. A spokesman for Obama's transition team did not respond to requests for comment Monday.

Additionally, the question of whether to prosecute may never become an issue if Bush issues pre-emptive pardons to protect those involved.

Obama has committed to reviewing interrogations on al-Qaida and other terror suspects. After he takes office in January, Obama is expected to create a panel modeled after the 9/11 Commission to study interrogations, including those using waterboarding and other tactics that critics call torture. The panel's findings would be used to ensure that future interrogations are undisputedly legal.

"I have said repeatedly that America doesn't torture, and I'm going to make sure that we don't torture," Obama said Sunday on CBS' "60 Minutes." "Those are part and parcel of an effort to regain America's moral stature in the world."

Obama's most ardent supporters are split on whether he should prosecute Bush officials.

Asked this weekend during a Vermont Public Radio interview if Bush administration officials would face war crimes, Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy flatly said, "In the United States, no."

"These things are not going to happen," said Leahy, D-Vt.

Robert Litt, a former top Clinton administration Justice Department prosecutor, said Obama should focus on moving forward with anti-torture policy instead of looking back.

"Both for policy and political reasons, it would not be beneficial to spend a lot of time hauling people up before Congress or before grand juries and going over what went on," Litt said at a Brookings Institution discussion about Obama's legal policy. "To as great of an extent we can say, the last eight years are over, now we can move forward — that would be beneficial both to the country and the president, politically."

But Michael Ratner, a professor at Columbia Law School and president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, said prosecuting Bush officials is necessary to set future anti-torture policy.

"The only way to prevent this from happening again is to make sure that those who were responsible for the torture program pay the price for it," Ratner said. "I don't see how we regain our moral stature by allowing those who were intimately involved in the torture programs to simply walk off the stage and lead lives where they are not held accountable."

In the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, the White House authorized U.S. interrogators to use harsh tactics on captured al-Qaida and Taliban suspects. Bush officials relied on a 2002 Justice Department legal memo to assert that its interrogations did not amount to torture — and therefore did not violate U.S. or international laws. That memo has since been rescinded.

At least three top al-Qaida operatives — including 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed — were waterboarded in 2002 and 2003 because of intelligence officials' belief that more attacks were imminent. Waterboarding creates the sensation of drowning, and has been traced back hundreds of years and is condemned by nations worldwide.

Bush could take the issue of criminal charges off the table with one stroke of his pardons pen.

Whether Bush will protect his top aides and interrogators with a pre-emptive pardon — before they are ever charged — has become a hot topic of discussion in legal and political circles in the administration's waning days. White House deputy press secretary Tony Fratto declined to comment on the issue.
Under the Constitution, the president's power to issue pardons is absolute and cannot be overruled.

Pre-emptive pardons would be highly controversial, but former White House counsel Arthur B. Culvahouse Jr. said it would protect those who were following orders or otherwise trying to protect the nation.

"I know of no one who acted in reckless disregard of U.S. law or international law," said Culvahouse, who served under President Ronald Reagan. "It's just not good for the intelligence community and the defense community to have people in the field, under exigent circumstances, being told these are the rules, to be exposed months and years after the fact to criminal prosecution."

The Federalist Papers discourage presidents from pardoning themselves. It took former President Gerald Ford to clear former President Richard Nixon of wrongdoing in the 1972 Watergate break-in.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/a...errogators

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Reply #1 posted 11/17/08 3:33pm

Tremolina

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Of course Bush will pardon any buddy in crime, himself, Rumsfeld and Cheney first.

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Reply #2 posted 11/17/08 3:40pm

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

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Can the Hague bring charges?

I stay Woke.

Two Fish 2008, Upstream/Downstream: Master Teacher, Healer, Leader, Of Hope, At Peace, To Sanctuary, In Redemption, Living Gifts unto Life and Light.

http://prince.org/msg/100/264513
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Reply #3 posted 11/17/08 3:42pm

SUPRMAN

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Are we really going to go after Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzalez, and everyone who worked for them?

No. It serves no purpose because the final authorization came from the Executive Branch. We are not going to spend four years rehashing the Bush Administration.
Expect to see a lot of wrongdoing uncovered but few prosecutions.

Meanwhile, civic knowledge is enhanced by discussing public affairs, taking part in civic activities and reading about current events and history, the group said.


Which is why we have P & R!
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Reply #4 posted 11/17/08 3:45pm

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

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SUPRMAN said:

Are we really going to go after Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzalez, and everyone who worked for them?

No. It serves no purpose because the final authorization came from the Executive Branch. We are not going to spend four years rehashing the Bush Administration.
Expect to see a lot of wrongdoing uncovered but few prosecutions.

The same thing was said when Nixon broke the law.

I stay Woke.

Two Fish 2008, Upstream/Downstream: Master Teacher, Healer, Leader, Of Hope, At Peace, To Sanctuary, In Redemption, Living Gifts unto Life and Light.

http://prince.org/msg/100/264513
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Reply #5 posted 11/17/08 3:50pm

SUPRMAN

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SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

SUPRMAN said:

Are we really going to go after Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzalez, and everyone who worked for them?

No. It serves no purpose because the final authorization came from the Executive Branch. We are not going to spend four years rehashing the Bush Administration.
Expect to see a lot of wrongdoing uncovered but few prosecutions.

The same thing was said when Nixon broke the law.


Nixon was a different case. He was a sitting President with a paper trail and audiotape of his criminal behavior. Also, Nixon was ratted out. No one is ratting out Bush or Cheney on an indictable level yet.


The Hague cannot go after Bush. I think we are either not signatories or only signed with the stipulation that any U.S. citizen could only be tried with U.S. consent.
We are not in the ICC yet I don't think. We wanted an exemption for U.S. military on foreign soil.

Meanwhile, civic knowledge is enhanced by discussing public affairs, taking part in civic activities and reading about current events and history, the group said.


Which is why we have P & R!
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Reply #6 posted 11/17/08 4:18pm

foal30

International Cricket Council?

look this is no good, I was cheer-leading for Obama on the clear understanding that he will haul before the court those responsible for genocide, aggression, theft and murder.These little men torturing because they lack either the mental capability to say no, or the balls to be a real man are small fry.

start at the top Obama, get the real criminals.

It'll really do wonders for America's standing abroad, and show following wannabe administrations that there is a penalty for hijacking the land of the free.No charges = compliance to crime.Eyes cannot be shut to the horrendous crimes perpetrated in your name for others profit.

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Reply #7 posted 11/17/08 4:38pm

SUPRMAN

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foal30 said:

International Cricket Council?

look this is no good, I was cheer-leading for Obama on the clear understanding that he will haul before the court those responsible for genocide, aggression, theft and murder.These little men torturing because they lack either the mental capability to say no, or the balls to be a real man are small fry.

start at the top Obama, get the real criminals.

It'll really do wonders for America's standing abroad, and show following wannabe administrations that there is a penalty for hijacking the land of the free.No charges = compliance to crime.Eyes cannot be shut to the horrendous crimes perpetrated in your name for others profit.



International Criminal Court

Don't expect it. I would be very surprised to see it. We may shame them by exposing their deeds but it's bad form to pursue criminal and civil charges against the previous administration.

Meanwhile, civic knowledge is enhanced by discussing public affairs, taking part in civic activities and reading about current events and history, the group said.


Which is why we have P & R!
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Reply #8 posted 11/17/08 4:49pm

RenHoek

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Sadly, I agree...

Although I am a fervent supporter for the Bush crimeys to have their day in court... I feel that our economic woes far outweigh that "in the moment"... If Obama were able to stabilize and even boost our economy in a short time, using whatever means, perhaps in the 2nd or 3rd year of his first term we'd see him be able to turn his focus on that...

Everytime I comb my hair, Thoughts of U get in my eyes, U're a sinner, I don't care, I just want your creamy thighs

Get to know me... Ask Ren Hoek anything

A working class hero is something to be...
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Reply #9 posted 11/17/08 6:35pm

Rightly

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if obama really had any balls he´d be pressing charges.

small circles, big wheels!
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Reply #10 posted 11/17/08 6:44pm

SUPRMAN

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Rightly said:

if obama really had any balls he´d be pressing charges.


Obama could not press charges. Congress or the Attorney General would have to do that. Because they are out of office it may be beyond Congress' reach but no the AG's. Obama could direct the AG to find and prosecute.

Meanwhile, civic knowledge is enhanced by discussing public affairs, taking part in civic activities and reading about current events and history, the group said.


Which is why we have P & R!
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Reply #11 posted 11/17/08 6:48pm

lilgish

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No shit he won't, he's said as much everytime. Pelosi, none of the "major" dems are behind it.

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Reply #12 posted 11/18/08 12:12am

Tremolina

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SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Can the Hague bring charges?

They could but they would not. Bush has threatened the Netherlands with an INVASION of the Hague if any US citizen is brought to the Hague for war crimes.

That's US moral standing and friendship for ya.

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Reply #13 posted 11/18/08 12:18am

Tremolina

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SUPRMAN said:

foal30 said:

International Cricket Council?

look this is no good, I was cheer-leading for Obama on the clear understanding that he will haul before the court those responsible for genocide, aggression, theft and murder.These little men torturing because they lack either the mental capability to say no, or the balls to be a real man are small fry.

start at the top Obama, get the real criminals.

It'll really do wonders for America's standing abroad, and show following wannabe administrations that there is a penalty for hijacking the land of the free.No charges = compliance to crime.Eyes cannot be shut to the horrendous crimes perpetrated in your name for others profit.



International Criminal Court

Don't expect it. I would be very surprised to see it. We may shame them by exposing their deeds but it's bad form to pursue criminal and civil charges against the previous administration.

Oh cry me a river that it's "bad form" to go after previous administrations.
It's way worse form to let war criminals get away with their crimes.
Not only will you once again confirm the world's view that the US is a nation of not to be trusted, war monging hypocrites that will let their criminals get away with any hiddeous crime in the name of God, freedom and the people, you will also create the legal precedent that administration members engaged in war crimes can not, will not and should not be prosecuted for it. Wow, that's so reassuring. With all due respect for your viewpoints, it's utterly dumb and immoral to risk all that just because it's "bad form" to go after them.
[Edited 11/18/08 0:21am]

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Reply #14 posted 11/18/08 12:26am

Tremolina

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RenHoek said:

Sadly, I agree...

Although I am a fervent supporter for the Bush crimeys to have their day in court... I feel that our economic woes far outweigh that "in the moment"... If Obama were able to stabilize and even boost our economy in a short time, using whatever means, perhaps in the 2nd or 3rd year of his first term we'd see him be able to turn his focus on that...


Ah the age old excuse of: please not now, because I am busy with something much more important than the fact that they illegally invaded another nation, blew it up and killed hundreds of thousands a long with it for a bunch of lies that only made our rich richer and our nation poorer. Yes they torture and committ numerous other war crimes in our name but hey, "it's the economy stupid!" rolleyes

But I am glad that you will at least consider justice for a "later moment". Wonder tho' what the excuse will be then. That after careful consideration of all the facts, it's a case of "bad form" to go after a previous administration?
[Edited 11/18/08 0:27am]

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Reply #15 posted 11/18/08 12:31am

Tremolina

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lilgish said:

No shit he won't, he's said as much everytime. Pelosi, none of the "major" dems are behind it.

And what Peolosi and other "majors" think is law. That's how civilisation works. You let co-criminals decide on what the course of justice should be: no justice.

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Reply #16 posted 11/18/08 2:28am

lilgish

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Tremolina said:

lilgish said:

No shit he won't, he's said as much everytime. Pelosi, none of the "major" dems are behind it.

And what Peolosi and other "majors" think is law. That's how civilisation works. You let co-criminals decide on what the course of justice should be: no justice.


I don't vote for "either" parties, so don't blame me, I only supported candidates that wanted impeachment or war crimes for Bush, Cheney...

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Reply #17 posted 11/18/08 2:30am

shanti0608

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lilgish said:

Tremolina said:


And what Peolosi and other "majors" think is law. That's how civilisation works. You let co-criminals decide on what the course of justice should be: no justice.


I don't vote for "either" parties, so don't blame me, I only supported candidates that wanted impeachment or war crimes for Bush, Cheney...


Kucinich woot!

Some times I like to put ketchup on my roasties...deal with it! lol
Yay!! I am going to hell, some place warm!
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Reply #18 posted 11/18/08 3:31am

Tremolina

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lilgish said:

Tremolina said:


And what Peolosi and other "majors" think is law. That's how civilisation works. You let co-criminals decide on what the course of justice should be: no justice.


I don't vote for "either" parties, so don't blame me, I only supported candidates that wanted impeachment or war crimes for Bush, Cheney...

I didn't blame you personally, just the wacked out reasons you mentioned.

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Reply #19 posted 11/18/08 3:33am

Tremolina

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shanti0608 said:

lilgish said:



I don't vote for "either" parties, so don't blame me, I only supported candidates that wanted impeachment or war crimes for Bush, Cheney...


Kucinich woot!

The guy that led a weak 3 day campaign to "impeach" Bush and Cheney only for his own political gain and didn't even put up a fight to have it endorsed by his party members.

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Reply #20 posted 11/18/08 3:49am

shanti0608

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Tremolina said:

shanti0608 said:



Kucinich woot!

The guy that led a weak 3 day campaign to "impeach" Bush and Cheney only for his own political gain and didn't even put up a fight to have it endorsed by his party members.


I guess he has moved on to the "bail out" controversy.

I know that most politicians are the same and are only out for personal/party gain.
I admire him above most for at least voting NO for the war in Iraq before it was popular to be against it.

Some times I like to put ketchup on my roasties...deal with it! lol
Yay!! I am going to hell, some place warm!
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Reply #21 posted 11/18/08 5:14am

AriesIII

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the whole crew will live thousands of lifetimes of hell to correct their evil doings.

Powell was smart, he got out early.

I'm hopeful Obama will do the right thing was far as bringing peace and prosperity around the world, there is too much to do concertrate too much focus on the previous administration, every dog has its day.

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Reply #22 posted 11/18/08 6:10am

Tremolina

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AriesIII said:

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the whole crew will live thousands of lifetimes of hell to correct their evil doings.

Powell was smart, he got out early.

I'm hopeful Obama will do the right thing was far as bringing peace and prosperity around the world, there is too much to do concertrate too much focus on the previous administration, every dog has its day.

So you are okay with not prosecuting them?

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Reply #23 posted 11/18/08 7:06am

AriesIII

Tremolina said:

AriesIII said:

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the whole crew will live thousands of lifetimes of hell to correct their evil doings.

Powell was smart, he got out early.

I'm hopeful Obama will do the right thing was far as bringing peace and prosperity around the world, there is too much to do concertrate too much focus on the previous administration, every dog has its day.

So you are okay with not prosecuting them?


No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there are more important and urgent circumstances that need his immediate and decisive actions, namely, saving homeowners homes from the mouths of predators who have stolen and crushed the engine that drives the global economy.

Banks and Fannie May are not interested in being accountable for their greedy actions with regards to homeowners...nothing has happened but more tricks and deceitful actions on the part of agency heads and politicians...just watch Paulson and Bernanke on tv today, they're going to be jumping hoops and creating more lies.

The best way to punish these guys is to close down the Federal Reserve and print our own money, the people's money.

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Reply #24 posted 11/18/08 7:15am

Tremolina

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AriesIII said:

Tremolina said:


So you are okay with not prosecuting them?


No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there are more important and urgent circumstances that need his immediate and decisive actions, namely, saving homeowners homes from the mouths of predators who have stolen and crushed the engine that drives the global economy.

Banks and Fannie May are not interested in being accountable for their greedy actions with regards to homeowners...nothing has happened but more tricks and deceitful actions on the part of agency heads and politicians...just watch Paulson and Bernanke on tv today, they're going to be jumping hoops and creating more lies.


Fenny and Freddie ceo's should be prosecuted as well. AIG ceo's should immediately be fired and all their bonuses confiscated, followed by prosecution too.

While he is at it, he orders the DA to bring in the Bushista's and he can go on and worry about other urgent matters.

Making such a decision is not work for him but it IS urgent!

The best way to punish these guys is to close down the Federal Reserve and print our own money, the people's money.


With a "Yes we can!" mark on it and a pic of Obama's old shoes!

woot!

-
[Edited 11/18/08 7:16am]

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Reply #25 posted 11/18/08 7:19am

Imago

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Tremolina said:

Of course Bush will pardon any buddy in crime, himself, Rumsfeld and Cheney first.

Actually he's already preemptively pardonned himself in a provision that was slipped into a bill last year.

Essentially, it pardons him ahead of time. Congress (Republicans AND Democrats) signed off on it.

Obama can't push for charges even if he tried.


booty!

IMPORTANT AS ALL HELL: http://prince.org/msg/7/293484

booty!
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Reply #26 posted 11/18/08 7:52am

Tremolina

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Imago said:

Tremolina said:

Of course Bush will pardon any buddy in crime, himself, Rumsfeld and Cheney first.

Actually he's already preemptively pardonned himself in a provision that was slipped into a bill last year.

Essentially, it pardons him ahead of time. Congress (Republicans AND Democrats) signed off on it.

Obama can't push for charges even if he tried.

Source bitte mr. imago.

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Reply #27 posted 11/18/08 7:55am

Imago

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Tremolina said:

Imago said:


Actually he's already preemptively pardonned himself in a provision that was slipped into a bill last year.

Essentially, it pardons him ahead of time. Congress (Republicans AND Democrats) signed off on it.

Obama can't push for charges even if he tried.

Source bitte mr. imago.


booty!

IMPORTANT AS ALL HELL: http://prince.org/msg/7/293484

booty!
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Reply #28 posted 11/18/08 8:00am

Mars23

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It's pretty simple. Obama could use the power he helped grant to the executive, declare Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and even Powell "enemy combatants", and detain them without charge until he has time to pursue a prosecution against them.

You woke up in the morning with a peculiar feeling

You looked up and saw egg dripping from the ceiling.
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Reply #29 posted 11/18/08 8:03am

Tremolina

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Imago said:

Tremolina said:


Source bitte mr. imago.
vid

I am at work. Do you have a transcript? or better yet, a legal source and not a journalist?
[Edited 11/18/08 8:04am]

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